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	<title>Comments on: It is your destiny.</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/</link>
	<description>Just these guys, you know.</description>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3807</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3807</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re not wrong Melmoth, the kid wasn&#039;t sympathetic at all. There&#039;s nothing in the narrative that makes you connect with the character or care about his well being, other than him being a kid.
I rationalised my non-child-killing decision as being &#039;in character&#039; for my PC. I approached Dragon Age as I would a table top RPG and decided to try and stray true to a particular method or style of resolving problems. I figured my human noble was basically a goody two shoes with a pragmatic streak who wanted to resolve the situation quickly and with as few lives lost as possible. I chose the blood magic option as it required the death of a woman who:

a) Was not at all sympathetic as she caused the mess in Redcliffe in the first place
b) Was mean to Alistair during his childhood
c) Had a duff accent

One dead noblewoman beats the potential of a destroyed village (and all the accompanying deaths) or a dead child in my character&#039;s book.

Still, as ropey as this bit of narrative was it&#039;s interesting that we can all discuss and justify our choices isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re not wrong Melmoth, the kid wasn&#8217;t sympathetic at all. There&#8217;s nothing in the narrative that makes you connect with the character or care about his well being, other than him being a kid.<br />
I rationalised my non-child-killing decision as being &#8216;in character&#8217; for my PC. I approached Dragon Age as I would a table top RPG and decided to try and stray true to a particular method or style of resolving problems. I figured my human noble was basically a goody two shoes with a pragmatic streak who wanted to resolve the situation quickly and with as few lives lost as possible. I chose the blood magic option as it required the death of a woman who:</p>
<p>a) Was not at all sympathetic as she caused the mess in Redcliffe in the first place<br />
b) Was mean to Alistair during his childhood<br />
c) Had a duff accent</p>
<p>One dead noblewoman beats the potential of a destroyed village (and all the accompanying deaths) or a dead child in my character&#8217;s book.</p>
<p>Still, as ropey as this bit of narrative was it&#8217;s interesting that we can all discuss and justify our choices isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Melmoth</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3806</link>
		<dc:creator>Melmoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3806</guid>
		<description>@Pardoz: Most interesting! I&#039;ll have to try and look that interview up, and seeing as I fell into the trap of buying KOTOR while it was on sale on Steam this past weekend, I will have to go back and refresh my memory as to how the dialogue options in there actually work too.

@Aaron: Hmmm, I didn&#039;t release the Mage though, where everyone else seems to have done so. Maybe I missed something in the dialogue, but I felt that a potential demon-calling Blood Mage who&#039;d been secretly poisoning the Arl might not actually be trustworthy and good to his word, and was probably locked up for a reason, even if he did say &#039;Terribly sorry about all the death and stuff&#039; from behind his prison bars.

&lt;i&gt;I didn’t fancy the idea of child murder either&lt;/i&gt;

This is another thing that&#039;s getting to me, I think. I just didn&#039;t care. I don&#039;t know if I&#039;ve been desensitised to it all by witnessing too many precocious kids in fantasy stories getting into hideous trouble and everyone having to run around sacrificing themselves to save the kid&#039;s stupid disobedient hide, or whether it&#039;s just because Bioware can&#039;t write compelling sympathetic characters. I&#039;m a parent, and the most silly things concerning the suffering of children in real life have me blubbering in sympathy as I imagine anything like that happening to my child, but these characters in the game just don&#039;t elicit the same emotion from me, nothing near to it, in fact. 

Hoom, hrum, I&#039;m having trouble thinking of a game that has however, although I&#039;m sure there must be a few that I&#039;ve experienced that have done so.

Further pondering is required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pardoz: Most interesting! I&#8217;ll have to try and look that interview up, and seeing as I fell into the trap of buying KOTOR while it was on sale on Steam this past weekend, I will have to go back and refresh my memory as to how the dialogue options in there actually work too.</p>
<p>@Aaron: Hmmm, I didn&#8217;t release the Mage though, where everyone else seems to have done so. Maybe I missed something in the dialogue, but I felt that a potential demon-calling Blood Mage who&#8217;d been secretly poisoning the Arl might not actually be trustworthy and good to his word, and was probably locked up for a reason, even if he did say &#8216;Terribly sorry about all the death and stuff&#8217; from behind his prison bars.</p>
<p><i>I didn’t fancy the idea of child murder either</i></p>
<p>This is another thing that&#8217;s getting to me, I think. I just didn&#8217;t care. I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;ve been desensitised to it all by witnessing too many precocious kids in fantasy stories getting into hideous trouble and everyone having to run around sacrificing themselves to save the kid&#8217;s stupid disobedient hide, or whether it&#8217;s just because Bioware can&#8217;t write compelling sympathetic characters. I&#8217;m a parent, and the most silly things concerning the suffering of children in real life have me blubbering in sympathy as I imagine anything like that happening to my child, but these characters in the game just don&#8217;t elicit the same emotion from me, nothing near to it, in fact. </p>
<p>Hoom, hrum, I&#8217;m having trouble thinking of a game that has however, although I&#8217;m sure there must be a few that I&#8217;ve experienced that have done so.</p>
<p>Further pondering is required.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3805</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 10:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3805</guid>
		<description>I went for the blood ritual option because I also thought that I didn&#039;t have time to wander up the road and visit the Mage Circle. I didn&#039;t fancy the idea of child murder either and much preferred the option of having the person who caused all of this mess sacrifice herself to end it all.

The problem I had with this option was that other than Alistair whining at me, there was no other reaction. The arl (after I finally woke him up) just sort of shrugged and said the equivalent of, &quot;Oh well, you did what had to be done I suppose.&quot; Guess he didn&#039;t much care for his family after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went for the blood ritual option because I also thought that I didn&#8217;t have time to wander up the road and visit the Mage Circle. I didn&#8217;t fancy the idea of child murder either and much preferred the option of having the person who caused all of this mess sacrifice herself to end it all.</p>
<p>The problem I had with this option was that other than Alistair whining at me, there was no other reaction. The arl (after I finally woke him up) just sort of shrugged and said the equivalent of, &#8220;Oh well, you did what had to be done I suppose.&#8221; Guess he didn&#8217;t much care for his family after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Pardoz</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3804</link>
		<dc:creator>Pardoz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 08:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3804</guid>
		<description>Actually my recollection (based on a half-forgotten interview I read somewhere with...was it Chris Avellone?) of the &#039;give guy money, guy ends up murdered for it in alley&#039; bit is that they were trying to subvert/comment on the tropes that both Star Wars and a lot of Bioware&#039;s games are based on.  Thus also your Creepy Mentor&#039;s whole &#039;A plague on both their (Sith and Jedi) houses&#039; mentality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually my recollection (based on a half-forgotten interview I read somewhere with&#8230;was it Chris Avellone?) of the &#8216;give guy money, guy ends up murdered for it in alley&#8217; bit is that they were trying to subvert/comment on the tropes that both Star Wars and a lot of Bioware&#8217;s games are based on.  Thus also your Creepy Mentor&#8217;s whole &#8216;A plague on both their (Sith and Jedi) houses&#8217; mentality.</p>
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		<title>By: Melmoth</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3803</link>
		<dc:creator>Melmoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 07:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3803</guid>
		<description>@Spinks: Of course the only reason that it became an &#039;issue&#039; is that I had someone else I knew who&#039;d done the quest a different way and so I knew the other result; on its own it is perfectly fine, but if MMO communities are anything, they are notorious for providing spoilers and insisting that you must play the game X way or your character is broken and they will not group with you.

@Zoso: Arr, confounding expectations isn&#039;t a bad thing, but doing it often would make each quest choice more of a lottery, rather than any sort of actual decision, and this is something I hope Bioware will avoid with TOR.

@ikew: Thank you for applying for the position of Senior Hater/Flamer and Technical Troll Lead for Killed in a Smiling Accident. We are currently reviewing your application and will get back to you as soon as possible. In the meantime, here are a few immediate observations based upon your application:

&lt;i&gt;Okay. You sir are a noob.&lt;/i&gt;

Although abuse is an expected and well used tool by all our haters, we expect a level of inventiveness that is a higher standard than what you have provided here. In the future, perhaps try going outside of the standard MMO hate speech and really experimenting with other terms; I would suggest some time spent observing the more thick-skulled members of sporting fandom to really get a few ideas for taking your abuse to the next level.

&lt;i&gt;It’s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend.&lt;/i&gt;

Although an excellent effort on the abuse front, if not a little confused, you should probably know by now that to qualify for full Internet Fuckwad certification this should actually have been a car analogy.

&lt;i&gt;Grow up.&lt;/i&gt;

Attempting Internet&#039;s Greatest Irony certification at the same time as Internet Fuckwad certification is, whilst admirably ambitious, perhaps a little greedy.

Thank you for taking the time to apply, we will notify you when we can as to whether your application has been successful. Please note that this application does not affect your statutory rights.

P.S. I stand corrected on KOTOR, I find it interesting that a different company did the same sort of thing with their RPG, I wonder if they were trying to emulate Bioware, or if perhaps Bioware tried to take what Obsidian did on board when they produced DAO.

P.P.S. You actually make some other points that I&#039;d like to provide a rebuttal to, but unfortunately the general tone of your comment leads me to believe that it would fall on deaf ears, and therefore I won&#039;t bother.

@Stabs: They also call each other Ser instead of Sir, so obviously they&#039;re lifting more than a leaf from George R. R. Martin&#039;s A Song of Ice and Fire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Spinks: Of course the only reason that it became an &#8216;issue&#8217; is that I had someone else I knew who&#8217;d done the quest a different way and so I knew the other result; on its own it is perfectly fine, but if MMO communities are anything, they are notorious for providing spoilers and insisting that you must play the game X way or your character is broken and they will not group with you.</p>
<p>@Zoso: Arr, confounding expectations isn&#8217;t a bad thing, but doing it often would make each quest choice more of a lottery, rather than any sort of actual decision, and this is something I hope Bioware will avoid with TOR.</p>
<p>@ikew: Thank you for applying for the position of Senior Hater/Flamer and Technical Troll Lead for Killed in a Smiling Accident. We are currently reviewing your application and will get back to you as soon as possible. In the meantime, here are a few immediate observations based upon your application:</p>
<p><i>Okay. You sir are a noob.</i></p>
<p>Although abuse is an expected and well used tool by all our haters, we expect a level of inventiveness that is a higher standard than what you have provided here. In the future, perhaps try going outside of the standard MMO hate speech and really experimenting with other terms; I would suggest some time spent observing the more thick-skulled members of sporting fandom to really get a few ideas for taking your abuse to the next level.</p>
<p><i>It’s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend.</i></p>
<p>Although an excellent effort on the abuse front, if not a little confused, you should probably know by now that to qualify for full Internet Fuckwad certification this should actually have been a car analogy.</p>
<p><i>Grow up.</i></p>
<p>Attempting Internet&#8217;s Greatest Irony certification at the same time as Internet Fuckwad certification is, whilst admirably ambitious, perhaps a little greedy.</p>
<p>Thank you for taking the time to apply, we will notify you when we can as to whether your application has been successful. Please note that this application does not affect your statutory rights.</p>
<p>P.S. I stand corrected on KOTOR, I find it interesting that a different company did the same sort of thing with their RPG, I wonder if they were trying to emulate Bioware, or if perhaps Bioware tried to take what Obsidian did on board when they produced DAO.</p>
<p>P.P.S. You actually make some other points that I&#8217;d like to provide a rebuttal to, but unfortunately the general tone of your comment leads me to believe that it would fall on deaf ears, and therefore I won&#8217;t bother.</p>
<p>@Stabs: They also call each other Ser instead of Sir, so obviously they&#8217;re lifting more than a leaf from George R. R. Martin&#8217;s A Song of Ice and Fire.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoso</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>You make an excellent point, ikew, it is *exactly* like real life, just the other day Geoff in accounts was possessed by an evil spirit, and Clive in sales had tried to cover it up, but after Geoff&#039;s undead army had butchered their way down to Goods Inwards he was all like &quot;oh no, what have I done&quot;, and in a particularly touching and realistic moment he sacrificed himself by luring Geoff into the stationery cupboard and triggering a post-it avalanche that buried the pair of them.  You try telling these reviewers that Dragon Age is presenting all-too-realistic moral choices, though, and they don&#039;t believe you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make an excellent point, ikew, it is *exactly* like real life, just the other day Geoff in accounts was possessed by an evil spirit, and Clive in sales had tried to cover it up, but after Geoff&#8217;s undead army had butchered their way down to Goods Inwards he was all like &#8220;oh no, what have I done&#8221;, and in a particularly touching and realistic moment he sacrificed himself by luring Geoff into the stationery cupboard and triggering a post-it avalanche that buried the pair of them.  You try telling these reviewers that Dragon Age is presenting all-too-realistic moral choices, though, and they don&#8217;t believe you.</p>
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		<title>By: Spinks</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3800</link>
		<dc:creator>Spinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3800</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend.&quot;

I guess real girlfriends do tend to be more judgemental.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess real girlfriends do tend to be more judgemental.</p>
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		<title>By: Stabs</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3799</link>
		<dc:creator>Stabs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3799</guid>
		<description>My word! A Godwin! I thought they&#039;d been hunted to extinction.

Top marks for managing to provoke one in 2009, Melmoth!

Back on topic I find the most sinister aspect of this whole affair is the fact that someone has borrowed an E from the Earl of Redcliff and put it back in the wrong place! Is there no decency left in this (or that) world?

My antispam word is Rimbuggle which is what the Earl said when he found out what they&#039;d done to his E.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My word! A Godwin! I thought they&#8217;d been hunted to extinction.</p>
<p>Top marks for managing to provoke one in 2009, Melmoth!</p>
<p>Back on topic I find the most sinister aspect of this whole affair is the fact that someone has borrowed an E from the Earl of Redcliff and put it back in the wrong place! Is there no decency left in this (or that) world?</p>
<p>My antispam word is Rimbuggle which is what the Earl said when he found out what they&#8217;d done to his E.</p>
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		<title>By: ikew</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3798</link>
		<dc:creator>ikew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3798</guid>
		<description>Okay. You sir are a noob.

First, the dialogue you reffer to is in KotOR2 - a Obsidian game. Not bioware. KotOR 1 is bioware and it&#039;s all like &quot;Wow, you saved a kitten! Everyone you like will live forever!&quot;
Second, there is a third option in dragon age - if you are not an asshole and let the blood mage go free, he comes along and offers to use the life energy of the dumb broad to send you in the demon realm. Where you can kill or NOT kill the fucker. 
Third. Yes, the game asks you to make hard choices. Yes, sometimes there is no right thing to do. Reminds you of something? Oh my god, yes! Real life, for instance. Or good fantasy (like song of fire and ice). I mean, come ON. Fuck black and white. In reallity there are only shades of gray. If hitler had won, the west would not be using only products made in china right now. Dragon age makes you make tough decisions. And then judges you for them. THIS is AWESOME. It&#039;s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend. Grow up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. You sir are a noob.</p>
<p>First, the dialogue you reffer to is in KotOR2 &#8211; a Obsidian game. Not bioware. KotOR 1 is bioware and it&#8217;s all like &#8220;Wow, you saved a kitten! Everyone you like will live forever!&#8221;<br />
Second, there is a third option in dragon age &#8211; if you are not an asshole and let the blood mage go free, he comes along and offers to use the life energy of the dumb broad to send you in the demon realm. Where you can kill or NOT kill the fucker.<br />
Third. Yes, the game asks you to make hard choices. Yes, sometimes there is no right thing to do. Reminds you of something? Oh my god, yes! Real life, for instance. Or good fantasy (like song of fire and ice). I mean, come ON. Fuck black and white. In reallity there are only shades of gray. If hitler had won, the west would not be using only products made in china right now. Dragon age makes you make tough decisions. And then judges you for them. THIS is AWESOME. It&#8217;s not unlike the difference between a blow-up doll and a real girlfriend. Grow up.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoso</title>
		<link>http://www.kiasa.org/2009/12/02/it-is-your-destiny/comment-page-1/#comment-3797</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiasa.org/?p=3130#comment-3797</guid>
		<description>I can at least see what they were trying with the beggar, &quot;ahhh, we confounded your expectations, and from thence the compelling gameplay arose!&quot;  

The demon kid is definitely a bad case of CPRG solipsism, though, where nothing exists independently of your character, I didn&#039;t think it was a particularly good idea to bugger off and leave things as they were and had a save game at the ready if it all went a bit wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can at least see what they were trying with the beggar, &#8220;ahhh, we confounded your expectations, and from thence the compelling gameplay arose!&#8221;  </p>
<p>The demon kid is definitely a bad case of CPRG solipsism, though, where nothing exists independently of your character, I didn&#8217;t think it was a particularly good idea to bugger off and leave things as they were and had a save game at the ready if it all went a bit wrong.</p>
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